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John Sikorski's avatar

Over the years I've worked with plent of people who "sound like confident, knowledgeable humans, often ones who tell us what we most want to hear" but they don't actually know anything.

LLM's short coming is in their name, Large Language Models. They don't actually know anything, they just string words together in confident and believable ways that are usually correct. The more you use LLMs the more you realize AGI feels so close but is still far away. It's like full self driving cars. Tesla was "almost there" 10 years ago and now it works in "almost all" situations but the same will be said years from now.

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Michael E. Kupietz's avatar

Pardon the late, and lengthy, comment. As usual, you manage to touch on a lot of issues I'm fascinated by, and could write a long essay in response. Some random thoughts:

> " I worry that it’s only a little while until an LLM is blamed for ... the words that nudge someone into suicide."

AI has already been accused of nudging people to suicide; here's just one, but there are others easily found on Google: https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/02/06/1111077/nomi-ai-chatbot-told-user-to-kill-himself/

> "The problem is that they pass the Turing test, in the sense that they fool people into believing they’re something they’re not"

Once again you've touched on something I've thought a lot about.

The problem is, we've never had technology before advanced enough to challenge whether the Turing test is actually useful or valid, so we always assumed it was. Surprise! It may not be, after all. It sure sounded good for a long time, though.

> "There’s a school of thought that says that, as LLMs get bigger, they exhibit emergent behaviors not fully explainable by their underlying models"

There's a lot of AI fanfic out there right now. I'll reserve any excitement about those for when I see AI actually doing them, not just people claiming it will do them.

I would say we should naturally expect any very complex system with stochastic elements to exhibit surprising behavior occasionally. Reading further meaning into this is the same fallacy that makes people think something special has happened when they board a train in Kathmandu and wind up sitting next to their old neighbor from Cleveland. or when they flip "heads" 20 times in a row, or when they glance at the clock and it says "11:11". Not only is it not strange or meaningful, but in fact the numbers say that the fact that it happened is less strange than if it didn't happen occasionally.

I have a whole spiel about how this served us well when our primitive ancestors needed to see a glint of an eye and a flick of a tail through the brush and think, "Tiger!" We infer larger patterns out of chaos, it's the fundamental thing our minds do. So when a machine gives a set of indicators that we can infer genuine intelligence, or some other emergent property, from, our minds pick up the ball and run with it. If I wanted to stir up controversy I could point out some other major societal belief systems I think we can chalk up to this same phenomenon, it's by no means limited to how we perceive AI.

> "But token prediction, no matter how sophisticated, is not only not reasoning, it is not even reasoning-like. It’s not “partway there and just needs more compute.”"

It's like a breath of fresh air to hear this. I wish more people got it. In a recent reply to a comment of mine on this or some other substack, someone actually accused me of "hubris" for being assertive in my view that LLMs don't really think as we do. I replied, "No, it's just understanding how LLMs work."

I'm getting drawn into a disappointing (and, honestly, tiresome) number of those kinds of exchanges lately. As I said: lots of fanfic.

> "To me the suit looks very strong, and I’m glad to see it."

Now this is something I seem to be firmly in the minority on. A few thoughts around the topic of AI text-to-image and copyright infringement:

As you correctly observe, AI doesn't really copy the work. It stores statistical information about the work, and factual information isn't subject to intellectual property ownership.

What's more, I find the way computer vision "learns" to identify, and therefore reproduce, images of specific objects fairly analogous to how humans do. There has never been an artist that learned without copying and internalizing other artists' output. This is why artists have a style—they learn "this is what an eye looks like, this is what a hand looks like, this is what a brushstroke looks like, this is a good color palette". They have internal models built through observation, which inform their output. This set of observations could be truly said about humans or AI.

Here's a thought experiment: suppose a human dedicated themselves to learning the style of a previous artist, and made a living creating new paintings in that style. That's easy to criticize on a couple of different levels, but is it copyright infringement? Was the next person who did a pointillist painting after Seurat infringing?

Next, suppose a human dedicated themselves to learning the style of *all previous artists*, and made a living producing works in those styles upon request. Is that copyright infringement?

I think clearly in either of those cases, if the artist included content that was close enough that a reasonable person would consider it a duplicate, then, yes, it's copyright infringement.

But what if it's only similar, not close enough to be indisputably a copy? Is copying a style, without directly copying content, copyright infringement? Again, remember: there is no human artist who has not, at some point, copied a style. Did Robert Johnson infringe on Son House? Did "Sgt Pepper" infringe on "Pet Sounds", or "Their Satanic Majesties Request" on "Piper At The Gates Of Dawn"?

Obviously there's a tremendous gray area. The difference here, I think, is automation and scale. Human artists can only produce so much work. With AI, we're talking about virtually unlimited capacity to instantly produce things that might not, if executed at human scale, endanger the livelihood of an artist. Maybe at scale, ripping off a style, without ripping off content directly, poses the same problems that a human artist would have to directly rip of content to cause. I don't know.

As with the Turing test, we are in need of new differentiators. We previously only thought things through as clearly as we needed to, but those lines have moved now because technology is challenging the old limits in ways we didn't expect to actually see happen.

And the AIs charge money for it, make profit off it. If I was a copyright holder, that would bother me.

BTW, there are obvious counterexamples to my hair-splitting: Amusingly, I did have one day when for some reason I could not get SDXL to stop outputting Darth Vader. I wasn't even doing anything related to any of the themes in Star Wars. And I don't think it's possible to use Dall-E 3 for very long without it spitting out a clear imitation of "Starry Night" or "The Great Wave Off Kanagawa", I've had to throw out a lot of Dall-E output because of it. It's hard, subjectively, not to see those as copyright infringement, any way you slice it. It's a generating a copy of the art (even if those works might be public domain by now, the principle is the same.)

There's one other issue: I can't talk about copyright at all without noting that the original purpose of copyright law has been horribly perverted by, you guessed it, companies like Disney and Universal.

What originally began as a way to strongly limit creators' rights to profit, so as to incentivize continuing to innovate, has been turned into the opposite: an entitlement to reap profits off a single creation without ever having to create anything again, not just for the creator but for their descendants for 75 years beyond their death. (I've also seen things like ASCAP using legal intimidation to shut down a beautiful, thriving, long-running open mic night because they couldn't prove that in 30 years nobody had ever played a cover song there.) The idea was to incentivize creators to keep creating, not to create a right to unlimited profit.

Maybe it's not such a bad thing if copyright laws get a little weaker.

I say that as a music creator and artist myself, perhaps not someone who depends on art for a livelihood, but as someone who definitely understands the sense of ownership over your own creative ideas.

And, obviously, I want to see my artist friends able to easily make a safe livelihood, but I'm also not sure it would be such a bad thing if Disney and Universal had financial incentive to generate new art, rather than crank out "Mamma Mia 7: The Dancing Queen Goes To Guadalajara" or a 4-movie cycle based on a minor character from Alpha Flight #53.

And I don't think it's my friends whose profits are being threatened by AI image generators ripping them off. I just don't think my neighbor who makes and sells charcoal drawings of abstract shapes is going to have his market usurped.

Personally, if a court were to find that Midjourney (re)generating Shrek is transformative, it wouldn't bother me, I think the "slippery slope" between GlobalEntertainmentCorp and anyone who is actually going to be hurt by AI artistic output is unimaginably long.

I might even secretly be a little happy to see GlobalEntertainmentCorp get nudged towards feeling like they might have to innovate more to stay competitive, rather than sleeping on a bed of golden intellectual property rights. Once upon a time, that was considered a good thing.

Complex issues, to be sure, and I don't think as ethically clear-cut, in either direction, as a lot of people nowadays seem convinced that they are.

One other interesting note: you currently can't copyright the output of AI text-to-image in the US, because the images are said to not to be the product of human endeavor—it's been compared to a photograph accidentally taken by an animal. It's funny, they can't produce copyrightable works, yet they can produce copyright infringement. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

> "They’re being used by humans whose language (and hence whose apparent mindset) they adopt and echo"

You're not kidding. On several occasions, I've gotten Claude to swear at me. See for grins: https://michaelkupietz.com/?p=28979#s

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